From Bootcamp to Project Manager - Keanya Phelps

Speaker 1: Hi, welcome to another episode of Django Chat. I'm Will Vincent, joined by Carlton Gibson. Hello, Carlton.

Speaker 2: Hello, Will.

Speaker 1: And we're very pleased to have Kenya Phelps join us, who is a project manager at Cactus Group. Software engineer and was chair of DjangoCon US in Chicago this fall. Thank you for taking the time.

Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Carlton and Will.

Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for coming on. Excited.

Speaker 1: So maybe you could tell us how did you get into coding originally because you didn't study it in undergrad like the two of us?

Speaker 3: No, I

Speaker 1: mean I mean we didn't study it either.

Speaker 3: Oh, okay. Okay. Well, I mean like everyone's life was um blown up and ploded during the COVID years. Uh that is where um I got into coding. I actually um went to a coding book boot camp. So I got into coding by way of coding boot camp. A little backstory, my sister Jeanette O'Brien, she went through um momentum coding boot camp, which was located in um Raleigh, North Carolina. She went through that and um loved it and became a uh instructor. So Um, it was impersonal. Like every time I had a tech question

Speaker 3: or anything, I would always reach out to my baby sister, Jeanette. And one day, you know, one day she's like, you know, you could do this boot camp. Like I'm like, no, I couldn't. I I it took me three years to learn how to turn my computer on. And I'm Definitely afraid of Mac Pro Books. Um, no. And she's like, no, you can do this. I and it was more so she felt like she could teach anybody anything. So it was more of a challenge for her. And so I applied and lo and behold I got in. And it was like more of a like a four-month intensive type, you know, uh 40 to 50 hour week. immersive training. Um much to my surprise and and delightment, if that's a word, I uh pick

Speaker 3: started picking up it up. really quickly and and I loved it. And so there was an opportunity um for some fellowship work at Cactus. So I interviewed with some folks over there at the end of the program. And they decided, okay, let's try her out, you know, for a few months to see if it works out. you know, starting off as a junior developer and I'm still here, so apparently it works out. It worked out so so it worked out. Yeah. I mean I I my in my previous life I always um gravitated. My career was more so in account management and self support. So that's probably how

Speaker 3: and I in my mind I wanted to be like a technical project manager. I wanted to manage projects. However I wanted to have the the technical um, you know, prowess, if you will, to to to be able to deliver projects. So that I will say that was in the forefront of my mind during the boot camp that I did just um didn't I wanted to learn how to develop, but I also wanted to actually be a a technical project manager. And that's

Speaker 2: and that's where you that's where you're uh working now, right, as a project manager.

Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah. So woof that's what

Speaker 2: appeals to you from the project management side versus like, you know,

Speaker 3: So I had to make the leap from account management to project management because in account management, the reason that was my career is I love developing relationships. And I know it sounds cliche, but I am a problem solver. It probably doesn't sound cliche to you guys because you're you developers. You like complex problems, you like to solve them. So it's it is like it seriously, being the oldest of six children I kinda like, you know, it's like I wrangle it. I think it's just in my personality. Um what um The thing that like most about the project management side of it is

Speaker 3: the technical project management s uh side of it is that you can't that that I am actually kind of like the I won't say yeah the middleman of the technical part and then the client and product and I like having that context being able to context switch from, okay, yeah, I know it might take us three, three weeks to um write this code to okay you know what, let me corral this particular developer because he's not he or she is not really filling this project. Those types of things. It it's a challenge, but I like that. And, you know, one of the things that

Speaker 2: Well I'm I'm always scared of t uh speaking to the clients. I'm always like, you know, I n I like a good project manager who who, you know, acts as that shield between the other.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna say it's a superpower to not just enjoy it but to To do it, right? I mean you probably s suspected that before, but can feel it now, right? Like most developers have no desire to be project managers and are probably not great at it if they're put into that role. So to be open to it and to enjoy it and to fill in the technical thing is that's a Venn diagram that's quite rare.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it absolutely. Um as a a uh my t th my technical brain does not like to speak to clients, but when I put on my project manager hat I am okay, you know, well we're gonna let's let's do this, you know. It's it's like, you know, I have I don't know if you can kind of compare it to Beyonce, she says when she's on on stage she's Sasha Fierce. Like when I

Speaker 1: Yes. Even Katie puts on So

Speaker 3: when Kenya puts on her project management hat, she she's like a Sasha Fear. She 's a very good idea.

Speaker 1: Yeah, what was I I think a lot of I think a lot of like pop stars do that. Who is I? Sabrina Carpenter has like some name for her like alter ego. Because a few or maybe it was Tate. Oh I think it was Tate no Tate McRae. I think it's like Tot Tatiana, my daughter's all into her. Because yes, you can be shy and introverted. I don't know if Beyonce is, but yeah, adopt different personas depending on the context.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah. Yes, it's one hundred percent that's me. Like I'm like I'm not gonna you know, if I was ever in a meeting with Carlton and Will talking tech and and I would not be, you know, raising my hand to, you know, oh can I say this? No. But however, if you had a project that was kinda on the verge of um running over budget or time, then I'm your girl. I'm gonna I am going to speak up loud and clear and we're gonna get it done.

Speaker 1: Well I think I mean Carlton's a good example of this, but I think, you know, the the elder figures in the Django community all are not just humble, but they're they're very open about what they do and don't know. I don't see a lot of bragging in the way that Some tech communities, not all, do. So I think it's very welcoming to, you know, hear Carlton, Jacob Kaplan Moss, all these people just say, I don't know, you know, to, you know, of course they could and and as I've realized and I'm sure you have too, the the correct mindset is, well, I don't know, but of course I could figure it out, right? Because nobody can keep all of this in our head, right? That's sort of the The challenge though in a way is some I feel like some domains you can kind of have a mental model of what you're doing, but coding is just so fractal that It's just impossible. It's more like you eventually have a mental map and you're like, I'm gonna dive in and spend the time to learn how to do that thing, but I don't have to beat myself up because I can't remember anything.

Speaker 1: Yeah, whatever

Speaker 3: syntax. Right. I used to beat myself up in the beginning when I was learning when I was um Googling, oh, wait, what what is the get f work flow again for the two hundred and thirty time.

Speaker 1: I still I still Google it. I mean I I still find that I will ask a question and uh find something I wrote because I phrased it, you know, just like that. And I'm God, like, oh man. Like, you know, five years ago me was he had something going on. Uh-huh.

Speaker 3: Uh-huh. And that's so weird that you say that, Will, because I remember I think it was at PyCon when I first met you, I was carrying your book around. Oh.

Speaker 1: Well, I wrote it. I mean the the book, the first edition. Yes, Django

Speaker 3: for Profe Yeah, for professionals. Yeah, because I was at was it it was PyCon I think last year and I was at I was actually doing some work too and you a couple of chapters were helping it helped me to figure some things out. And it was just so funny that you were at the the um that the stu the I think I forget what what sponsor it was or you were at the booth and somebody was like called you Wilvitz and I was like Saint Wilvits I was like I have your book

Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Speaker 3: and it just speaks to the accessibility too of the Django community because here it is I'm in some office, home office in Chicago, you know, um, fighting for my life trying to figure this this code out referencing your book and then three months later I'm at a PyCon and you are the person who wrote the book and I have your book in there. It's just it You can't make this up. Or it was like, oh my god. I I had and I had never met you. So

Speaker 1: And I had that with with Carlton, the very first DjangoCon I ever went to. I gave a talk on APIs. And Carlton was in the audience. And, you know, to me, he was like Django Fellow, Django Rest Framework, co-maintainer, and came up to me after the talk, said some nice things, you know, gently corrected one or two things I said wrong. And um Well, no, you did. I I I mean, you know, I I think it was more syntactical than anyways, did it in a very kind way, right? And so yeah, I think, you know So that's the model I have of like people are accessible, but also remembering like I was I was the same way. I mean, I I learned how to code as an adult. Um I didn't have a boot camp. It was literally me in a room for two years um pre-LLM. s getting scared to put something on Stack Overflow

Speaker 1: and get lit up, you know. So um yeah, I've sort of carried that. Anyway, so I was just you know, you telling your story, I think um It's hard for unless you've done it, it's hard to realize it takes a lot of courage to to do a boot camp to put yourself in a beginner position as an adult, right? When you're running projects and all of a sudden you know, interviewing people and now you're interviewing for a individual contributor role, it takes you know, it's I think it's good for your soul, but it's it's a yeah, it changes your perspective, right? To do that as an adult. A lot of people I think rightfully go, ooh, I don't want I don't want to put myself in that position. Because it's uncomfortable, for sure.

Speaker 3: Yeah. It uh absolutely i i it is. And it I also I think about my experience And, you know, from, you know, I always say prior, prior career life to now. And I kind of, you know, think about how other folks get to from point A to point B. And I I I really do feel um lucky, blessed, because the folks that I've met along the way have been so generous, so just engaging, interesting, um, friendly, a joy to be around. And I just ho I I want that for everybody. And not just in coding and learning how to program and technical just

Speaker 3: period. Like in the work like if you have to work, you know, because we d who wants to work, but if you have to You know, why not have it be this type of environment? And that and I've I've also because I've heard horror stories And I'm like, oh my God, I just think about if that had been me, I I I don't think I could have continued. So I I really feel the need, a strong need to pay a for it because You know, it has been a joy. And I know it's not always the case for everyone. So whatever little thing that I could do in my little corner of the internet, I am trying. to do that, uh uh whatever I can do, to to pay it for it and help the next, you know, um, Django knot, techie, whatever you want to call it, you know, a a person who is changing careers.

Speaker 3: later in life, you know, minorities who don't think who don't feel seen or uh underrepresented people who are who don't feel seen. Whatever I can do, because you you're right, I have that perspective And it's just, yeah, something. It it's huge.

Speaker 2: And cactus is a nice place to land on your feet at, right?

Speaker 3: Yes, it is. Um So when I got the the um full time permanent position, it was amazing because I really thought that, okay, you know, they had an onboarding program and I thought you know, I th I'm gonna learn a lot and then I'm gonna be thrown into the wolves to try to find a job. But there were so many folks that um took the time to Pair program, um show me the ropes just at just be human. I guess it is like I hate when the bar is that low, but but they are beautiful. They 're beautiful folks like Tobias, the the the founders, Tobias and Colin.

Speaker 3: They are so accessible. They are so much fun to work with. In my experience, I don't know if folks are out there that that that don't that don't have that experience that um experience with them, but It's a fun place to work. It was a nice place to land. Like I said, very blessed. And I just assumed that it would be a fellowship, but I'm here. That was in 2022. I'm still here. Um and we're Still doing it still liking my job, still loving the I was gonna s I was gonna say go into the office, but no, we don't have to go into the office. We do we do two or three times a year.

Speaker 1: They have a nice office though. I mean I think we yeah, the sprints the sprints for Django Con twenty three and twenty four were there and it's like, well, you could get some work on it.

Speaker 3: Amazing office. Yeah. We do we do uh um an office week. Um we try to do it quarterly. Like I'll be in Durham probably January or early February for a week. And we um I I do feel like I've had remote jobs before, even before programming and I feel more connected to the people, the folks that I work for or work with, I'm sorry, at Jang uh at at Cactus , even more so than folks that I work went into the office every day. Like there is a there's a something there. Like we I we feel connected. So there

Speaker 2: are there any things you do particularly as a team to stay connected remotely? Because it can't I mean, you know, getting together every so often is a is an obvious one, but are there you know, in the day-to-day are there things that really work, really help you?

Speaker 3: Um, I will say I I mean I I guess our stand-ups, we try to not overthink and um with our meetings and stand-ups and and um ceremonies and and stuff like that. There we try to make it meaningful. So a lot of times we have um specific meetings for specific things. And I think the culture has been, since I've been here, has been open and honest. So I don't really feel like folks are afraid to speak up and you know, have conversations where I just feel like when you have honest conversations um

Speaker 3: that it fosters it just fosters a deeper connection. So it's not just a li a a qu a a ton of surface conversations. Like, you know, we are definitely digging into because it's a smaller team now, so we have to I I always say we have to stay efficient because w we don't have a lot of um, you know, uh human resource So to speak. We have a lot, tons of tech, software, whatever, but the people, we have to make sure that we nurture the folks, the people, because that's what's making this train stay on the track, to in my in my opinion. So yeah, there is

Speaker 2: it work. It's

Speaker 3: Uh-huh. Absolutely. So I think that, you know, we try to check in with each each other. Um, I can sense when folks are um overwhelmed or you know, might need a little something like that's just the that instinct that I have. Not patting myself on the back, it's just that I have that

Speaker 1: Not everyone has it in tech.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And

Speaker 1: you say that with love.

Speaker 3: Uh-huh. And I think too, because um, you know, we have some see uh quite a few seniors on the team now. So I think sometimes they get bogged down and because I they're so brilliant. I I I'm like, you know Come on, let's step back now.

Speaker 1: Let's

Speaker 3: you know, let 's talk about the human side. Yes. So

Speaker 1: it happens.

Speaker 3: So mm-hmm. So that is su um a a way that we try to stay connected. But definitely we ch uh when we have our in office events, we um we come in the off we're in that office. that week working with each other. It's always funny the first day. It's like so quiet. You can hear a mouth a pins rock And it's like I when I work and if I'm writing code, I have to have my house music on and I have to have background and then I always talk to my dog. Graham is my coworker. So it's so weird that when I'm in an office because it's so it's just a different environment. You have I'm like, okay. Can I turn this music on or is it gonna bother someone? That's always funny.

Speaker 2: That's the what?

Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm like, oh I'm that by myself.

Speaker 1: Yeah, right. Well that that that definitely happens, yeah. But no, social graces.

Speaker 3: What are these? I mean I

Speaker 1: I for for l for a long time I would um my wife could tell if I'd been like stuck on something for a while 'cause I would have like stret like coating hair 'cause I would sit there just like this. And so I'd come out with like this wall of hair and she's like, Oh, you've been like you know Stuck on something for a while. I was like, oh, I guess I have a tell. Yes. The wall haircut.

Speaker 3: The folks who are in our lives, you know, like my husband, if he hears me say Yes, in my office. He'll be like, Oh, she must have figured something out because I it every every little thing, even to this day, like if I'm running cold, if I if I grab a couple of tickets, because You know, I still I always told I I think I've told Tobias or Colin before, like, I am still gonna pick up some low hanging fruit tickets because I didn't stress myself out for uh two years learning how to code, not to code again. So I'm always like you know, so whenever I I you know, I'm figuring something out and he hears yes, he he'll be like, Oh, she wants to figure or something out, you know.

Speaker 1: Well did you find I found this when learning to code because I had come from, I guess kind of managing. I'd I was working in tech but I was managing a team, doing operations and business stuff. And so you don't um you don't get like the dopamine hit of fixing a PR or fixing something and making it work, right? Whereas learning how to code, yeah, there's long periods of frustration, but like you do get that like, oh yeah, like I I did something, you know? And I mean you're doing something when you're managing a team, obviously. But it's a different kind of thing. It's a di it's less of a spike of you know, oh done on to the next, right? It's more of like yeah.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: You know, keeping everyone happy. Um so anyways that was really a nice feeling having come from a couple of years of managing to then, yeah, just like, oh, I did this. Like, I got that. And um Yeah, it's an i I just saying that 'cause you I'm sure you could relate to that feeling too. That was one of the things that was sort of surprising. And I think that people who come from maybe an engineering background and then promoted into management, they go, Oh my God, like I don't feel good because I don't get that feeling of completion. um that I had right when I was rolling my sleeves up and doing it.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah. Absolutely. You could

Speaker 2: be behind it as well, right? You gotta you can't you can't just rust away.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you wanna keep you wanna stay a little stay a little sharp.

Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely. I just picked up a ticket um I think a couple of weeks ago and during stand up I was asking for um someone to review my PR and um I think it was Colin. He just w right in the stand up he went to it. I was like, um, excuse me. don't look at my code in front of everybody. And then he he was like, Oh no, it looks good. And I was like, oh my God, thank God. I mean But that was the first time he'd ever did that. He was like, why are you It it's it's fine but those types of things because you know, it's like, you know, no, I just want you to look at it. Don't share it until like no. But it was funny because that actually happened. I think it was Yeah, it was yesterday or the

Speaker 3: Friday and you know, just to quickly um review my PR write it in st in in our stand up. I was like Ah, I had to clutch my pearls. I was like, oh

Speaker 2: my goodness.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of intimate to look at the code in front of other people.

Speaker 3: Like

Speaker 2: my drawing. No, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's but it was it was fine. with those types of things, you know. And and that goes back to for me with cactus because, you know, I've never felt Um, you know, I every now and then I do. I still have imposter syndrome. But one of the things that uh that helps me, I have to say, is the place that I work. Um, Tobias and Colin have both shared with me that, oh, w I love working with you, Kenya, because you are uh it's a new you know, y you have a new w you bring newer ways t at looking at things and you know, they remember when they were learning, like you said, what you you remember. And

Speaker 1: Scott.

Speaker 3: Exactly. So I when we did um Django Con Europe, Tobias and I Um, we did something about uh we did a talk on pair programming. And at the time I was pair programming with the founder of the company and I was still kind of junior. But it worked for us. He's my favorite person in the paraprogramme. Like I I some people are like, really? Like he's a senior engineer. He I mean, you know Tobias, you know Colin, but they are my favorite folks to pair program with because I learned so much. It's fun because it it's always something like you know, if we're doing a live share or we're we're working and I'll ask a question and Colin was good with this.

Speaker 3: Like I I I'd be like, well do you think, you know, XYZ we should he was like, well, I don't know. Let's try it out. And and I'm like, really? We could do that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, I think that's the thing. Like they're they're learning too, right? I mean, because uh Carlson I both have, you know Even I've mentored people, which is weird to say. There's the imposter syndrome. You know, and it's it's like they're kind of like, oh my god, like you're doing something with me. And I'm like, no, like you you have interesting ideas. Like honestly, like and the This one person in particular I I mentored for a while and eventually we kinda stopped because it got to the point where I was like, I don't know. Like, you're asking good questions. We're just gonna both go you know, she'd got into the she'd gotten the reps to you know, kind of approach it like a senior person, which is to say, okay, I have this tapestry of kind of understanding, but yeah, I don't you know, it's uh you just get better at figuring stuff out. It's not that you know how to do a particular thing. Um or, you know, again, the questions, like it's it's I still find it so interesting when people

Speaker 1: write good you know, ask good questions, right? You know, or ask any question, right? If it comes from a place of like they're they're curious and they don't quite get it You know, maybe it's something I've heard before, but sometimes it's it's a new angle on something and I have to reconsider, oh, maybe maybe I could explain that thing better, or maybe maybe they have a real insight. Like why do we Why do people do it that way? It's like, oh, I just sort of it's ingrained that we just do it that way, but maybe there is a better way to do it.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Uh

Speaker 1: so I guess I would just say in pair programming situations, the senior person gets something out of it

Speaker 3: too.

Speaker 1: If you're the junior person. Like, don't think they're just doing it for you. They're definitely getting something from it too.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Yes. Definitely. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: I think that like this exact this phenomenon I think is j just what it is to be programming, right? You come to any problem. It's like how are you gonna solve it? Well, okay, you might know that, you know, if you're If you've done it that kind of problem, you might know, well, we're gonna use this, we're gonna use that. But the actual details of it, every single time, you're working it out, and that's that's the fun of it. So It's not like, you know, you're I'm I'm working with a junior, the junior doesn't know and I do. It's like we've got to discover the uh solution together. Um Well

Speaker 1: then that's the thing. I think that's that's that's that kind of like the major point I've tried to get across to people is like this is what it feels like, you know, because When I was learning, I was like, I wonder what it feels like to be Carlton Gibson, you know? Like or you know, and it's in a sense, it's that feeling of like, okay, I have some understanding, but I don't know. Like I'm just constantly learning stuff and learning that it's okay to not know things and approach it with an open mind. Again, like the strongest developers I've ever seen are the most Quick to say, I don't know, but also like, let's go check it out. You know, right? Like somebody who, again, acts all braggy, which is pretty rare in Django, but it still happens in some communities. Um it's just such an obvious insecurity I can yeah say and see now, right? But when you're younger you're like, oh my God, like, you know, it's scary.

Speaker 1: But it shouldn't

Speaker 3: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: That's not the attitude of a pro.

Speaker 3: No. And it was it it has been, you know, quite fulfilling when, you know, a Tobias or a colonist like, I don't know, let's do this, like Let's try it out. Like when I ask him, we oh I don't know, let's see. And it's just so refreshing, like, okay, but won't that break the code? Like they're like, we can fix They're like, we can fix it if it breaks. It's just cold. And they say that it's just cold. And they're like, I would have never thought that way. So it's so refreshing to be, you know, to see um professionals, especially professionals further on in their career who are you know they're doing big things they it to s to to work aside work side by side with them and they're they have that attitude, it it's amazing because I don't know how many times it's like

Speaker 3: let's see. Let's let's let's try to let's let's see what Stack Overflow or let's Google or now you know let's um Let's see what the LLMs say. A lot of times the LLMs are wrong, but but it's always fun

Speaker 1: back

Speaker 2: overflow as you can.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always fun. Like we It's so many side quests. Like you if you're working with like I'll pair with another um developer and then we we laugh at the responses that we get like like or the the solutions is like what like Colin will be like he'll put something in and and slack and be like, or even Tobias, th this is what I got. And and we laugh at it. It's like, what? What what's happening? But you know It it it is what it is. AI I guess is the what ape of the future. I don't know.

Speaker 1: Well we've made it thirty minutes, so I can ask I can say something about AI and I didn't bring it up for a change, but I'm just curious, what what is what is kind of the workflow that I guess Cactus or you are seeing? Like is is there one to the extent that you use AI and LLMs? have you have you all narrowed down on a a tool set, a flow at all?

Speaker 3: I mean there's it it's in the early stages. Um I I will say that um I think back when Tobias and I did Django Europe, DjangoCon Europe, um co-pilot was all the the rage for peer programming. And I wasn't impressed. He wasn't impressed because You know, I I I my assessment was it's okay if you are um if you know how to code, you know, if you know I if if if you know how to you know the syntax, you know the languages it's it's okay. It's it that's what it's used for.

Speaker 3: to pair program to help you. But it I feel like it was being marketed in the beginning, marketed to oh, okay, you know what? You don't really have to know anything. Boom, vibe coding. I I believe it was the beginning of vibe coding. And I had mentioned to Sebias, I don't think it's a good idea for junior folks or folks it it maybe a senior, yes Um fast forward, like we do use some AI tools, more so I think. the the notebooks we like. We like um yeah the Gemini notebooks for research and for PM work I'm not gonna lie, I like to use anything that um helps

Speaker 3: helps me to work more effectively and a little to reduce my busy work. So I might um I might use the polish my emails or um Some of the things like okay i if if I decide that I want to create a newsletter or or some type of marketing thing and I'm not the best in Canva. or those types of software. I liked uh I'll pop into their AI, you know, their agent and see if I can get some nuggets. be to help out where I have, you know, where I have some gaps in in knowledge, using it that way. But the whole, oh, you can just, you don't you could just Oh, I I I I'm one day I'm gonna just pick up and

Speaker 3: my computer and I'm going to create an app and I don't know anything about coding. I'm gonna vibe code an app It I no. And then I'm not it some of the thing we found yesterday we found um some something that was a little strange. We we think it's an AI a AI made website kind of mirroring cactus So we were doing some research and we found this website and we're like, what is this? And it looks like, you know, it could have been created by AI. None of the folks on the website were real. We don't think we looked it up And it was just really

Speaker 3: like w just it's it's just, you know, um trying to research and and uh looking through stuff, a different AI models. It it 's just It's weird to me. I mean, I'm not gonna I'm not poo-pooing AI, but um I personally where I am more passionate in AI about is just the um Uh the bias. The bias and AI. So what I'm no noticing more so, you know, in the the greater scheme of things is it's easier to um be very biased politically correct, but I want to say, you know, racist, discriminatory

Speaker 3: um just um perpetuating stereotypes through AI. That to me is what I've been more focused on lately and noticing and that concerns me because what do how how do we fix it? It's hard enough to get humans to come to the table and be and recognize, okay, I do have some bias. I do, you know, it's hard enough for that, but how how are we gonna go up against these computers now too? It that that's the thing. I won't say it's keeping me up at night. But it's definitely on my mind. Yes.

Speaker 1: Well, and it's the same thing. I mean, early days of Google, I was just reading something about AI and uh something else talking about bias and um this won't shock you, but it shocked me that for the longest time, if you typed in black women into Google, the top result was not what it should have been. Because, you know, so yes, the combination of the data itself, and then clearly there was no one at Google in a position of authority who was looking at that or cared about it. And so I g it's the yeah. The philosopher would say humans are all the same, Carlton, right? It's just things are amplified in different ways.

Speaker 2: of the internet, it's pretty racist, it's pretty sexist, it's pretty discriminatory, it's pretty, you know, full of nut job beliefs, and it well no wonder they come out from the average machine, right? The average machine will spout back what it was drained on. And yeah, it's It's a it is concern. Um I don't you know. And of course, yeah. The

Speaker 1: Well and these days Reddit is like the new Wikipedia. I mean and I say that not Totally joking? I mean Carlton and I had this, right? We had this side comment where yeah, it was your your son, right? We were talking sharing Reddit links.

Speaker 2: Son was defending the use of Reddit as a primary source. And I was like, and he's like, no, it's the only thing that's reliable. Everything else is unreliable. And I gotta say,

Speaker 1: the more I'm the more hopefully educated I am, the more I'm like, you know, Reddit compared to like the New York Times, the Washington Post, like Not to mention. I mean I'm like, well, at least I don't know, it's not so bad. It doesn't seem so bad compared to like, you know We don't need to go in that direction, but

Speaker 3: I'm not gonna fight you on that because I I'm a Reddit I'm I'm sorry, I'm a Reddit program. So

Speaker 1: Yeah. Um I did wanna Okay, we're 38 minutes in. Well yeah, yeah I was gonna say so um to be solo chair, I mean that's um how how did you get roped into doing it? Because I attended I attended and it was a great experience, but I can only imagine how much learning there was, how much work it was. Um and you've written a blog post, we'll link to right the first in a three-part series on uh Behind the Curtain. So I'll just mention those. There's a link to that.

Speaker 3: Um, so how did that happen? So after the fur I I attended DjangoCon, um During both years and I was all I was an organizer and I think that I Um just as a he he he funny, I should submit a quote to bring a proposal to bring Jagokan to Chicago. And so Peter G he's he's like, You should and I'm like, Really? Okay, well maybe I was like, You think I could do it? He was like, He knew you could do anything I'm like, are you just saying that because you want a proposal? Like I So I started the I took the weekend to mole it over, pulled together a a couple of uh other folks and said, let's do this.

Speaker 3: So um I went to work, boots on the ground, getting um a quotes, proposals for hotels and and who could s who could support and I think it took me about six weeks to kind of pull something together, submitted the proposal And um DEFNA reached out and they were interested and it took another couple of months before I locked it down. because the Janity and Daphna, I will say it's a little bit persnickety. So there are a lot of things to work out, a lot of things to hash out. And so finally, you know, we signed the contract and um

Speaker 3: I think Tobias and Colin were at lunch with Peter and he mentioned, do you think Kenya might want a chair? You know, and they said, Oh, Noah Kenya, yeah. She uh they asked if she would you think she would be a good one. They were like, Absolutely. He asked. Um, and I said, Yeah, I I could do that. I I think I could do it And so um in the meetings we started our our our week bi-weekly, then it turns to weekly um organizing meetings, and I learned a lot. I learned a lot. It it it's it's

Speaker 1: well it's project management in a way, right? I mean

Speaker 3: it is one hundred percent project management and um uh with a w with such a human element to it because of the nature of Django Khan And how, you know, we are um crafting experiences. We want folks to feel included. We want folks to feel heard. So, you know, it's not just your average kind of conference. It's that human empathetic, the empathy element a at Django Khan. So that that was the one thing that I was like, I I have to make sure that that is not you know, Nord during, you know, when I was sharing. That was my whole main thing that the empathy portion of it.

Speaker 3: Um, but it was Yeah, that's how yeah how and then I'm gonna I also be the chair for twenty twenty six.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because it's a two year

Speaker 3: yeah

Speaker 1: generally a two year and I I do want to say so it's Peter Grandstaff, right? From Yeah, we we get a little insular here, but I want to give a shout out because Peter did huge amounts of work for the Django Cons in in Durham.

Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes. He is and he is so generous with his his time with um, you know, supporting anything that he can do. He's a good teacher. Yeah. And then yeah, Peter's awesome. Peter is awesome. It's it's a it's a lot of work. Like it so we will start our I think our um monthly meeting for organizing in about February. And then, you know, we just start filling each other out. But then it gets around um, you know, I think June, maybe May. May June it start yeah it starts getting it starts ramping up a and folks start, you know, pulling their hair out.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah. The website, the the talks, you know, reviewing. I mean that's the least of it. The catering, like

Speaker 3: the programming, every day. Yeah. Yes. And then all do doing all of that s s wh while still maintaining the the feel of the of the the conference. You know, people have a expectation when they're coming to Django Khan. you know, uh uh the folks have been to quite a few. They have that expectation that, you know, this is gonna be a top tier experience and You know, you wanna make sure that you deliver on that every evening.

Speaker 1: You can feel it. You can feel it. I mean, even Even compared to a PyCon. And that's not just the size and it's taking nothing away from PyCons, which have tons of volunteers as well. But yeah, Jenga cons are special. I think it comes through. Uh I mean I was uh Django a DjangoCon, that was the DjangoCon US in 2018 in San Diego, where I met Carlton, that was my first ever tech conference. like ever ever like I had and so I'm totally anchored on that experience you know um overwhelmingly good, but also I didn't know anyone. You know, like I'd written these books, but I was just like alone and you know, like I didn't know anyone. I knew no one, right? And so I remember, you know, at like mealtimes and everything, I was just kinda like, you know, like

Speaker 1: right. So that's also ingrained in me when I see people who are who are newer , like, yeah, like I that was exactly me, right? Like I had no idea. about anything, right? And it was so welcoming. Then the next year I went to a PyCon which was in Cleveland in twenty nineteen and it was like three, four thousand people and you couldn't possibly recreate that even if you had all the other elements, right? It's just too massive. Um so yeah anyway.

Speaker 3: I agree.

Speaker 1: People haven't been to one. You can feel it. And this is kind of where it comes from. It's the blood, sweat, and tears.

Speaker 3: Absolutely. Absolutely. So um DjangoCon, um Durham, I can't remember what year. That was my first ever tech conference.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: And it was

Speaker 1: twenty three probably.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Twenty twenty three. It was twenty twenty three. Twenty twenty three was and it was awesome because I it was some my i I thought I would be intimidated. Like my whole thought process of what a tech conference is, you're thinking, oh, all of these, you know geniuses, brilliant, folks, writers, coals. Yeah, everybody. Like, you know. And then one year I got to actually sit on a panel with Carlton. I was like, imagine that. Um but yeah, I was like, um, yeah, i it was so I'm spoiled. I always say that Django kinda spoiled me because Since in my career, I have been to other tech conferences. I won't main names, but they're nothing like Nothing at all. It it's a different people, it's a different vibe, it's a different everything.

Speaker 3: So it's like, oh, you know, you go to these and then you want to run back to Django because like a warm blanket. I was like, oh, it's like, uh, that was it. Yeah, okay, I want to go to Jango Kai now.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, yeah, that's exactly it.

Speaker 1: And I think Chic um I know that this from the organizer side, Chicago is kind of perfectly placed in that it's international airport. It's not quite as expensive as, you know, Boston, New York, San Francisco. Um it's also people want to go there, right? It's a it's a huge city, right? So that's

Speaker 3: That's what we heard.

Speaker 1: Checks a lot of boxes. I th I'm well you would know. I think More people, despite everything, went to Chicago than made it to Durham, I believe, right?

Speaker 3: I think there was so we thought because of the climate, the um political climate that we would ha see um um see it drop that we would see participation drop um for visas and stuff like that. But I was told at the end, yeah, it it was successful. It w it was if you want to measure it success and, you know, folks come in a small profit or whatever, you know, but Yeah, people like Chicago. And the thing about it too is I am I born and raised in Chicago. I and I started to do it.

Speaker 1: I was born there too.

Speaker 3: Oh, oh, okay.

Speaker 1: Evanston Hospital. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We moved when I was four though, so I don't really have any memories.

Speaker 3: About ten minutes. Away from Evanston. Like I'm in the north I've like I'm not not too I'm on the north side but yeah I I love Evanston. Um But yeah, I am born and raised Chicago and I am a I love Chicago. So basically like I have to I I had to make sure that folks had what they needed, like, you know, they if you need me to create some type of experience in Chicago, I wanted to do it for everybody. Literally like you were.

Speaker 1: Well the timing's perfect, right? Like the the weather in September. I mean it was like seventy most days. Yes. Not a lot of wind, not a lot of cold.

Speaker 3: Yes. Um

Speaker 1: it's such a striking city. I mean at night, right? It feels almost like uh I don't know, like Blade Runner or something, right? Walking along like I have all these photos. 'Cause there's these huge, massive um skyscrapers and the river and then the weather was just Perfect. Like it was which it's not always in Chicago, we can say that.

Speaker 3: Oh no, it is

Speaker 1: but in the fall it's pretty nice.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh yeah. Because it's like t twenty below zero now, but and so I think Peter and or a couple of folks are like we should do it. Um they were like, oh let's push it out. Like it will they they I think it was that October date. I was like, absolutely not We need to stay in this particular time because

Speaker 1: September is good.

Speaker 3: Yeah, September is good. You didn't August might be too hot. September is the sweet spot. You wanna, you know, let's not mess around with Mother Nature because You she she can be very um moody in Chicago

Speaker 1: Yeah, no the weather was perfect. It was perfect um I was gonna say last year. This year. God it was only um two months ago, three months ago. It feels like

Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't it seems like last year.

Speaker 1: Yes, have you Have you re have you been able as a chair, are you able to I mean obviously you can't fully recover, but you do get a little bit of uh build-up reserves for the next time.

Speaker 3: It did take me a couple of months to kind of like work, you know, emotionally, mentally, physically to kind of like, okay, I'm back. Alright.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: So I'm good. Um I'll be at um my fighting weight, I like to say, when we start again in the beginning of twenty twenty six, I'll be good. It's it energizes me. I I really And the fact that it's Django Khan, I love the people, I love the community, you know, Django, obviously that's where I shine at writing, you know, in in in code and programming and development. So there's that. And then to introduce people that I like to my city is a ma I like I had I had so many side quests during DjangoCon. Like the w folks I just met then they were like, oh you want to go do this in Chicago? Sure. You wanna go you know like a

Speaker 3: I felt like, you know, I wanted to be like a personal host to everybody. And because of the size of Django Con, I was able to do that. So I was very I I felt good to to do that.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Well it's also I think when visitors come to your city, you're yeah, you see it through their eyes, right? Like, oh yeah, like I I've never done that or I haven't done that for years. Like I should go you know, it's the same way with um like I'm here in Boston, like I I'm technically I'm just outside of Boston. There's so many things I just wouldn't do because I've done them one you know, like and someone comes into town, like Carlton came to visit at one point and I was like Oh yeah, like we can there's like all this cool stuff we could do that I ha yeah, I haven't done in forever either, but to see it through your eyes I would totally do.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Pete Fox was like, let's go to the bean. I'm like, oh, I can't remember the last time I went to the bean And we were

Speaker 1: what's the bean?

Speaker 3: The m the the bean, it's like the big bean that it's a a landmark or I hadn't been. It's it's a huge draw. And it was so funny because they were like, How do we get to the bean? King was like, I don't know. I just live here. I don't know how to get to the bean. And so, but it's it's a a tourist destination. Folks want to take photos. We took up a ton of photos. Bartek took a ton of beautiful photos there. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah. Oh, like CloudGate. Oh yeah, yeah. The bee in Cloud. Yeah. You know what? I um Yeah, where the heck is you know, I didn't make it to that. I just we'll put a link. Well, I'll have to make it next fall.

Speaker 3: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Oh man. You know what I didn't even I didn't even make it to the um um the art museum, which I was um I know, because I I'm I made it to the water every morning and then I just didn't make it and um because my parents used to Yeah, as one does they you take take the train and they worked right near there and my mom used to go there during her lunch breaks to like de-stress from her corporate job. So she would just go and stare at the art for like twenty minutes and that was like her routine. So I was like, I'll do some of that. And then I didn't make it.

Speaker 3: See, I mean, and folks are always like, Oh, you remember that The art museum and um in that movie with uh Ferris Bueller, I'm like, Yeah, yeah, it's right down there, okay? So like you can go to the art museum.

Speaker 1: Yeah. No, Chicago I mean Chicago's Legit an amazing city and especially in September it shows its best side and I'm gonna try to build in a little more time next year. Because I um it's sort of in and out. Um and hopefully I won't give a forty five minute talk, I'll do a shorter one.

Speaker 3: I mean hopefully you I 'll do a talk. I'm gonna do

Speaker 1: I have a talk

Speaker 3: As the chair as the chair might hopefully you will do a forty five but as a but as a host to Chicago, I hope that you Yes, of course. Well we'll see.

Speaker 1: I'm I I can I can say here I'm I'm Scheming sorry have submitted for I think yeah, it just closed for PyCon US. Um a talk on uh Python web development Uh modern Python web development. So I'm gonna touch on Django but also Fast API, but more just do kind of a high level this is what's the same Um, this is what's maybe a little bit different um because I find it's so easy to get lost in the specifics of like this pat list, you know, AWS this, Heroku, whatever that, but like 80-90% of it is the same. And so um I would have anyway, it's a common, constant common question that b beginners have, or people who just like most people, I think most people don't do deployments very often. is the thing, right? Because if you're in a company, it's like someone set it up and you just do it.

Speaker 1: Or if you're a a newcomer, you know, so that it's like it's not done enough to uh warrant the attention that it deserves. We're just talking about deployment, Carlton. I'm saying my t talk topic for next year is gonna be around deployments. And I think it's a combination of like senior people don't have to touch it 'cause it's already built up from scratch. And then beginners get overwhelmed with the platform differences when most of it is kind of the same. Anyways, I have opinions, uh, so I'm just gonna put it That's my talk.

Speaker 3: Well that's it, but we'll see.

Speaker 1: We'll see the shorter the shorter the long version. I'm thinking the short version, but um unlike unlike this past year where I gave this AI talk, which was super fun to do. But I didn't know really anything about what it was gonna be and I had like three new repos and I definitely overdid it a little bit. So um I maybe I could be forty five minutes on a topic I know about, sorta.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. I was thinking about doing a talk too, but I was like, Well my can I pull that off with being, you know, the chair and giving a talk? Because I really do my thought is to do a talk around, you know, the bias in AI. But I don't know what that looks that I don't know what that looks like. And I don't know if I'll have the energy , the the the stamina to do it. So I I'm gonna probably ruminate over that. during Christmas break, you know, I might I'm gonna think about it a little more, you know, if I'm gonna do it would be nice to

Speaker 1: I think you should do it. I mean one of my colleagues at JetBrains, Michelle Frost, she's on the AI front and she's gives lots of talks and that's what she's all about is kind of bias and inclusion, exclusion and these things. I think it's Yeah, it's very relevant because a a lot of people don't think about it, but as soon as you mention it, they go, Oh yeah. Um yeah, that's a thing. But then, oh, this is how that has repercussions that impact everyone regardless of who you are.

Speaker 3: Yes. That's important.

Speaker 1: So either you're living with it every day and you're like, yeah. Or even if you're not, you're like, oh, huh. Yes. That should be elevated a little bit in importance.

Speaker 3: Yes, that's the thing because I want folks because it doesn't i i you you don't know w how detrimental is it is if it doesn't affect you and then what it looks like, you know. You know. Now I'm not I'm not trying to, you know, divide anything, the races or or anything like that. It's just I it it needs to be I think folks need to be yeah and it and it it needs to be pointed out. It needs to be intentional too. So I like, you know, I want it to Just folks to kind of just take a pause and look. I'm not asking, oh no, we gotta get rid of AI, but let's let's let's let's think this through, folks

Speaker 1: Yeah. It could be it could be a panel too if you um don't want to have to do the slides.

Speaker 3: Ah yeah. That's a good good idea.

Speaker 1: I mean a panel of people who could speak to just throwing ideas out there. You know,

Speaker 3: that's a really good idea.

Speaker 1: We um JetBrains is doing a a Python event in March and there's gonna be a Py l in Amsterdam, there's gonna be a Py Ladies panel, and this cracks me up. In the interest of diversity, I'm gonna chair it because it's all women. So they so I'm like, wow, like I can be the diversity person. Like let's go. Um but it's but they're they're gonna talk about various topics. And yeah, it's nothing better than people who anyways, another option other than a talk. But that would be Yeah.

Speaker 3: Cool.

Speaker 1: Carlton, we were just discussing things while you took a brief. Yeah, no, well

Speaker 2: my electricity fluctuated, the internet went down and it it took a while to come back. And I was like, oh no, maybe it's not coming back, but it did come back. You know, I'm glad you f held the fore while I was away.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, uh we're coming up on time. Is there we've asked you a lot of questions. Is there anything you wanted to mention or we should have asked you about? Um

Speaker 3: Is there um

Speaker 1: We're looking forward to your blog post, so we'll put a link to it. So on the

Speaker 3: Yes.

Speaker 1: So the first one was being chair, and then I think this the next one is about being an attendee to chair. Yes.

Speaker 3: Is that right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Speaker 1: That's something only a few people can write about.

Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And so like I said, it there were qu a a lot of um ideas and and quotes and thoughts and things. So I'm like, oh this this blog is turning into a small novel. I need to

Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's on the um we should give a shout out on the Cactus blog, which has other authors as well, and there's a lot of people.

Speaker 3: Yes. We do a lot of blogging. If you if folks are interested, you can see kind of our um our, you would call it just how what what we're doing lately, our blueprint, I think Colin. is working on some LLMs and he's blogging about that. Yeah, it's it's a lot of fun. So yeah, folks need to check out our blogs. I know that every now and then we get like I might see a post on LinkedIn and somebody is talking about a blog that either a a colleague from Cactus or Tobias or Colin wrote six or seven years ago. And they're always so surprised that people are still referring to their blogs from six, seven years or ten years ago.

Speaker 3: They're always so surprised.

Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of stuff is a lot more evergreen than you think.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. And then always tickles me. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well and yeah, if people don't know Carlton, you have the stack report, you have your own regular writings. In fact, I'm the only one who's not writing these days on of the three of us.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I know.

Speaker 3: Yes.

Speaker 1: But I'm I'm enjoying your writings too, Carlton, which some are free and some are paid. So speaking of which you have one should be coming out, right? You're due a monthly

Speaker 2: w one to finish the end of the year.

Speaker 3: Yes. I like your c your writings, Carlton. It makes I'm like, I understand what this guy is saying and it makes me feel so good that I understand what you're saying.

Speaker 1: Well it shouldn't be it shouldn't be confusing. Like if it's confusing, it's poorly explained.

Speaker 3: Just stoked that I'm like, wait a minute, I know what he's talking about. Yay!

Speaker 2: Well, you're making me blush now. I'm glad you enjoy it.

Speaker 3: I'm sorry. It but it's so true. Like it really is. I I I I think I said the same sentiment to you too. Well, like your books were easily you know, I have my Python books and you know, when I was learning how to coat and then when I got your first I think it was Django f um for API. I think I bought that first. I was like, oh my God, I should have got this a year ago because it answered a lot of qu it it was like it's so Like, okay, yes, I understand this concept. I understand the syntax. Yes. It's all whenever I I'm reading stuff that that It's just clear to me. You have no idea. It's just so amazing.

Speaker 3: It looks like Greek to me. I'm like, I don't I don't know.

Speaker 1: Well, and if you find a voice that you resonate with, right, it's like, oh, now I can trust this person, right? And that's what I keep like everything I do, I'm like, if I found this confusing, someone else will. And maybe I'm not the best person to explain it to them, but some people will find it interesting. And and same thing, right? Like I read everything Carlton does. Like you find a person uh and I do think, I mean, among content creators There's definitely a little bit of an Eeyore, the sky is falling, everything's being commoditized by AI thing. But I think at the same time, like actually having trust And a voice is more important and valuable than ever. You know, how do you reach people? But like you can you can tell if you're trying to do something. Like you can like I you read Carlton stuff, AI is not gonna write that. Even if and I've tried, even if I like give it all Carlton's writing and tell it to to write like Carlton, like it's not gonna write like Carlton.

Speaker 1: But even if it did, I don't trust it. And I trust Carlton. Exactly.

Speaker 3: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 3: The context and the trust still lives within humans. And like that's the thing that I, you know, I hold on to regardless. You know, there might be some AI that's helping me do my busy work, but I mean I that that human connection, you can't teach a computer empathy and accountability. So I mean Yeah, not not ever It won't happen.

Speaker 1: Not an LLM. Not an LLM. You could do a little filter, little empathy filter.

Speaker 2: We do the egg for episode now on on the on

Speaker 3: Yeah, a little a little empathy sand. Aww Yeah.

Speaker 1: Carlton, is there anything you wanted to uh

Speaker 2: to add? No, no, no. I mean I feel I've I've I've missed a bit the the exciting middle bit there. But um no, I think it's been a good chat. I think we're I haven't got anything left on my my list. Are we doing a project and a book or

Speaker 1: Yeah, I just we're s We've gotten lax here. So we didn't mention this at all to you, but we've informally done trying to mention a project in a book. I don't have a actually I do have a project. Uh well no, I don't have a project.

Speaker 2: I've got a project.

Speaker 1: And again, I apologies. We didn't even mention this in the notes or anything unless you have one. I'm gonna stump for I'll go first Um, this book, Until the End of Time, by Brian Green. I need to buy I'm gonna I'm gonna give this to you in March when I see you, Carlton. Because so Brian Green is this theoretical physicist. He's written a bunch of other books. This is really like a philosophy book. This is sort of a and I don't want to make this sound boring, but it's sort of like a older f person just being like, why does anything kind of exist? And um It's really hard to do justice to how much I loved this book. And I've I've well you can't see I've marked up so much stuff. It's it's a combination of like remembering like how physics and chemistry and biology and math all are just Shades of the same thing and he's clearly grappling with just being kind of an older person

Speaker 1: thinking about mortality. Um Ugh, it's just a beautiful, beautiful book of a eminent theoretical physicist just thinking deep thoughts. And I don't know how he made it interesting, I'll be honest, but it's so good.

Speaker 3: That's intriguing.

Speaker 1: I mean and he just makes these like offhand just about how chemistry is just, you know, like the periodic table is just like, well, it's just like an extra Oh god, I'm gonna get it wrong. You know, Electron here or there and I don't know. He just has these like there's so much good stuff in the book. Um it came out a couple years ago. I think it's sold okay, but I think it Carlton, I've been telling you about this book for a while, right?

Speaker 2: You have, you have. When you picked the L Pop, I was like, oh, that's the one Will Keep sent me to read.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um anyways, until the end of time, highly recommend. Carlton, do you have

Speaker 2: Okay, so I've got a project and a book. So for it. So the project I'm going to recommend is called Django Cron Task, which is from um Johannes Moran, who goes by the name Coding Joe. You should go to his GitHub. He's got several projects, Django Pictures, an S3 file upload, which is a nice little widget. He maintains the Django Select 2 integration. But this is like a cron style scheduler for Django. for the Jan new Django tasks framework. So if you need periodic tasks or scheduled tasks um and you want to use new Django tasks, then you've got this um add-on which gives you the scheduled tasks which aren't part of the core package now. So um That's that's my project. I think that's a really nice addition. Um

Speaker 1: Django cron tab, you said?

Speaker 2: No. Uh

Speaker 1: what is it? Say it to me.

Speaker 2: Cron tasks. Django cron tasks.

Speaker 1: Cron tasks.

Speaker 2: Put it in the sh in the in the chat there for you. well so

Speaker 1: thank you.

Speaker 2: But um so but check out go click through to his um other projects. He's a you know been a member of the Django community for a long time and he's got some other really good projects that are really worth checking out. So um that but that's my project for the for the week. And then for a book I'm going to recommend this one which is um new from Manning. It's um twenty twenty five. It's fresh out. It's called Just Use Postgres And um it's about all the things that post

Speaker 1: He actually reads these books. Like he actually reads these like soup I no, I aspire. I I'm not gonna

Speaker 3: Wait, go ahead.

Speaker 2: Wait, like I keep getting talking about I'm gonna be made unemployed by these LLMs that know more than me, so I've just got to keep reading. But it talks about, you know, so it's got a first section on um, you know, the basic the foundations of um SQL to like things like window expression or common table expressions, window expressions, recursive queries, um, etc. indexes, all those things that perhaps you think you should know and but then maybe don't. But then it goes on to JSON fields, full text search, extensions, using Postgres for generacy of AI, time series, uh geospace.

Speaker 1: Can you hold it up one more time? Was it Just use okay, I saw it. It just came out, right? It just came out last year.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fresh off the press. It's only been out like, you know, a s uh so it's bang up to date. And it's like, you know, if you're if you're using Django, then you're almost certainly using Postgres. And there's these advanced Postgres features that you've kind of heard of, but you're not a hundred percent sure how you work how they work. It's a great book. I really, really, really, you know, recommend you s but get it, stick it on your s on your desk, flick through every so often. Um Yeah. That's my point.

Speaker 1: Looking over. I still have some other books you've recommended that I bought that I haven't read, but as you've said, buying it is ninety percent of it, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, so no pressure unless you already had something prepared because we didn't mention this at all to you.

Speaker 3: I don't have anything prepared other than um as far as projects. If folks want to submit a proposal to bring DjangoCon to their city in 2027, 2028, the the um CFP is still open. Um, that would be amazing, you know, to that we you know, we're still looking for um cities to represent. So um

Speaker 1: And they could come to Chicago and talk to you and others instead of

Speaker 3: first

Speaker 1: hands guide to

Speaker 3: Yes. Yes Um also too, I am going to be at the uh PG Data Conference in 2026. It's also going to be in Chicago. It's taking place June 4th through the 5th. s um proposals, CFPs are open. That's uh something that I am cactus is actually a a sponsor and a sponsor that so um that's

Speaker 1: Put a link there.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Posted by Prairie Prairie Postgres. Is that like the Midwest Postgres?

Speaker 3: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So if you like data, you know, we like data. So, you know, that'd be a fun little conference for folks to attend.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 3: I think yeah. I don't have any um I'm not reading anything lately. Um

Speaker 1: Oh I know.

Speaker 3: Which is weird. I had just talked to my husband too. I was like, I need a book, you know. It's been at least eight, nine months since I I read something. Um, but I don't know.

Speaker 1: Carlton, go on then. You're always reading fiction too. How do you

Speaker 2: Oh I'm oh I'm reading some terrible um Um well not terrible, they're wonderful. Fantasy novels by a guy called Joe Abercrombie. Um so he wrote a trilogy called the First Lore trilogy and this is a the follow-up this is the second one in a follow-up trilogy whose name it I'm sure it has, but Joe Abercrombie, he's he's he's worth

Speaker 3: I was thinking about doing the um because I'm into um Welcome to Dairy, um, it Stephen King.

Speaker 1: Oh, okay.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So the

Speaker 1: the

Speaker 3: the show, but obviously he has a t a ton of books and stuff, like I'm like and I'm not Yeah, he I love Stephen King. Like I I I really, really like Stephen King. And I'm like, maybe I should go back and read some of 'cause I've read read so many of his books. But I just finished up the Welcome to Dairy. Um

Speaker 1: You know, if you go to Google. com and type in welcome to dairy, there's a really cool little custom thing.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: There's like a little red balloon that pops up on the screen, which I've never seen before.

Speaker 3: On Google.

Speaker 1: On Google. Yeah,

Speaker 3: frightening.

Speaker 1: On the search results. It's like, okay. That was kind of cool. I was like, ugh.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I just fin i yeah, it was a really good um series. And and I I was impressed. Stephen King doesn't disappoint, but sometimes folks don't don't get his works. Like when they they um Switch it over to like the big screen or movies. Like his books are amazing to me. Like, but they're doing a good job, but welcome to Dairy. Love it.

Speaker 2: Okay. I'll go check that out

Speaker 1: I have to check that out.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well we could keep chatting, but I think we're we're at we're at time now. Um thank you for coming on. Thank you for being a chair, thank you for being part of our community, right? Because it's I'll say this like Carlton, I but feel like we've we've been waiting for the new wave to come in for a while now. And you know, you're tip of the spear of this new wave that's bringing new perspective, new energy, like everything. So it's Really wonderful to see.

Speaker 3: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It's been so much fun chatting with you two. Um, I love what you do. I appreciate being included in this this group. Um this this Motley crew, I like to call it. I I love it, I love it. Um I I I I'm always looking out for your works Um, I appreciate everything you do, thank you so much. So

Speaker 1: DjangoChat. com and on YouTube, and we'll see everyone in 2026. Bye bye.